The death of former CCP General Secretary Zhao Ziyang has saddened a lot of Chinese all over the world. Epoch Times reporter Qin Yue interviewed Zhang Lin, a democratic movement activist. After Zhao’s death, Zhang was commanded by the authorities not to attend any of the memorial services for Zhao.

History on Zhang: Zhang was admitted to the Tsinghua University in 1979. In 1988, Zhang Lin, Wang Dan, Yang Tao and Shen Tong were active in the democratic movement of 1989. Zhang was arrested on June 8, 1989, and sentenced to two years in prison for “instigating counter-revolutionary propaganda.” He was released in 1991 and continued to participate in democratic activities. On May 26, 1995, he was arrested again near Beijing and was sent to a labor camp. After he had served his term in 1998, he went to the United States to join overseas democratic activities. In late October, 1998, he went back to China to participate in democratic activities and was arrested the very next day and sentenced to three years in the Guangdong First Forced Labor Camp. His term ended at the end of 2001. He currently lives in China and is a freelance journalist for several overseas Chinese media outlets.

Reporter: How did you feel upon hearing about Zhao Ziyang’s death?

Zhang: Of course I was sad. Over the past few decades, Zhao stood out as a very upright communist who was very different from his colleagues. Zhao, at a critical juncture, chose to side with the people and uphold justice. During the June 4th Tiananmen Square Movement, he firmly objected to the order of having the military fire into the demonstrators. This was not easy. In fact, many of my friends have been thinking about this for so many years, hoping Zhao could regain his freedom. We all believed that he would live to see the day when China implements democracy. It’s such a pity that he passed away so early. When we heard he passed away, we were all very sad.

Reporter: Zhao Ziyang and Hu Yaobang were both leaders who were extremely popular with the people. They ended up in misery. Do you think their tragedies were avoidable?

Zhang: To a certain extent, the tragedies were unavoidable. They both faced strong opposing forces and dictatorial powers that made them realize Communism was a ridiculous nightmare. They tried very hard to turn the situation around and wanted to lead China down a democratic path. They were vigorously attacked by the autocratic forces in the party and both failed to achieve their goals. I should put it this way, the politics in China have long been dark and dictatorial, and it was predictable that these two would not be successful in what they fought for.

Reporter: What do you think is the difference between Zhao Ziyang and other CCP leaders?

Zhang: First of all, I think Zhao was a very simple and honest person, a very traditional Chinese man. The police called me to their office yesterday. I was telling them in their office that Zhao was different from other CCP leaders. He always considered others and the welfare of the civilians. We Chinese all know that in Mao Zedong’s time, most of the Chinese people were starving. Like many areas in the countryside in Anhui province, where I came from, the farmers did not have grain to eat all year long. They ate things like yams or taros. One person was given only 13 to 26 lbs. of yams or taros per year. The farmers were constantly in a state of starvation. In the 1960s, a lot of people died in Anhui, just like other provinces. When Zhao Ziyang was the leader, he paid specific attention to make sure the farmers could grow crops and have food to eat. There was a saying at that time, “Find Ziyang if you want to eat grain.” In Mao’s time, most Chinese people endured malnutrition. Starvation was everywhere. Tens of millions of people died of starvation during Mao’s time.

In Zhao’s time, he did not focus on political garbage like the so-called Marxism and Leninism. Zhao spent time on finding out how to grow crops, how to help the farmers to grow crops and have more to eat. When there was an excess of grain in one area, he made sure to use it to supply people in nearby provinces. I feel Zhao was a very simple and traditional person.

At the time of the Tiananmen Square Massacre, the fact that he went to Tiananmen Square to visit the students and spoke those words in tears further demonstrated that his heart was full of consideration for others, contrary to most extremely selfish and barbaric animal-like communists. In their hearts, there is no one but themselves; they are all materialists in the harshest sense of the word. But Zhao Ziyang’s heart was for others; therefore it manifested in him being a down–to-earth statesman. We feel Zhao Ziyang’s main character was that he was a common person; he had a common person’s point of view and a kind of genuine concern for others.

Reporter: News services have reported that the CCP hesitates as to whether or not to hold a memorial service for Zhao Ziyang. What do you think about this?

Zhang: I think a memorial service must be held. In fact, everyone in these few days can see from the web site and hear from the news that the entire international society and domestic societies are very concerned and sorrowful over the death of Zhao Ziyang. Regardless of how and whether Chinese officials hold a memorial service for Zhao Ziyang, Zhao has already established a milestone in people’s hearts. When Zhou Enlai passed away in 1976, it caused great sorrow among the people. The passing of Hu Yaobang in 1989 also caused tremendous sorrow and brought upon the great Tiananmen Square Democratic Movement. Zhao Ziyang was even more outstanding than either Zhou of Hu, so therefore his loss weighs more heavily on people’s hearts. People have already used various means to express their grief for Zhao Ziyang. What specific form will the memorial service take? Of course we have no way of knowing right now, but we hope the service will be ceremonious and it should be in the form of a state funeral.

Reporter: Do you think it is possible for the Chinese communists to heal the damage they have done to the reputation of Mr. Zhao Ziyang and reverse their official position on the Tiananmen Square Massacre?

Zhang: I think it is inevitable, but as to what extent it can be done at the present time, I am doubtful. I think it is quite possible in the future. Because the redress of Zhao Ziyang and the Tiananmen Square Massacre is an issue that the Chinese communists cannot ignore; it is a problem that must be resolved sooner or later.

Reporter: The passing away of Hu Yaobang brought upon the Tiananmen Square Democratic Movement, what do you think the effect of Mr. Zhao Ziyang’s death will be on the public?

Zhang Lin: Because of China’s long-term deception of the people through propaganda, today’s young people under 25 are not sure who Zhao Ziyang and Hu Yaobang are. Young college students today also do not know who Zhao Ziyang is. But for older citizens above 30, everyone knows who Zhao Ziyang is, remembers his name, and they will slowly get to understand what he represented in the end.

Therefore looking at the matter today, the situation is complex, due to the lack of cohesiveness in the peoples’ will and the degradation of morals in recent decades in Chinese society, one might say the attitude in the entire society has been complacent and irresponsible, people have become indifferent and they only know how to haggle for every ounce of immediate petty self-interest and haggle over other things. Even so, there are still a good number of citizens with conscience, a sense of justice, and a sense of responsibilities. I think these people will use various ways to show their respect and love for Zhao Ziyang.

Reporter: If there were a public movement like that in the year of 1989, how do you think the Chinese communist would handle it?

Zhang: It would be more difficult for them to handle now. If Chinese communists wanted to suppress anything like that now, it would be quite different from 15 years ago. In these 15 years, Chinese society has undergone enormous changes. Although the autocratic government of Chinese Communism is barely able to sustain its control, in reality this society has already disintegrated and decomposed. Everyone, every group, every region’s people has their own ideas. It probably would be hard to enforce the kind of suppression order like that of 15 years ago. In fact, the present Chinese communist tyrannical control is maintained very delicately. It does not have the kind of formidable strength that can strongly control and suppress as in the past. Now it’s power to suppress has diminished. Presently the military and the police are both very corrupt. The government and various levels of party officials are like grass in the wind that will lean with whichever group that appears powerful. Although it is hard to predict whether a democratic movement or public movement like the Tiananemen Square Democratic Movement might happen, once it happens, the possibility of suppression should be increasingly unlikely.

The public has lost faith in the CCP. The present conditions are unlike those in 1989. For instance, in the cities in 1989, many people worked for state-run enterprises. They needed to listen to their bosses because of their jobs. This problem does not exist anymore. Therefore, regardless of whether it is the passing of Zhao Ziyang or some other matter that comes up later, if the society creates any kind of political assault, the possibility of the authorities being able to suppress it will be more and more slim, they will have to yield. Like several public protests in Sichuan province last year, the authorities yielded and did not label them counter-revolutionary rioters. If this had happened in the past, it would definitely be called a counter-revolutionary riot immediately and be suppressed promptly. But as they look at it now, there had easily been 70,000 to 100,000, and even hundreds of thousands of people. It is hard for them to suppress such large groups. If they do, it may stir up an even more violent rebellion.

Reporter: After the new CCP leaders assumed the reigns of the government, they have continued the tradition of heavy-handed policies. Do you think the current leaders Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao will adopt reforms and move toward democracy?

Zhang: I should say that they have let the people down. Originally, many people were optimistic about them. But, this little bit of hope was quickly crushed. This is very unfortunate. These policies mean that the leaders of the CCP bloc are moving farther away from the people’s demands and hopes. However, no one can prevent this grassroots trend of democracy. This trend of democracy and increased public participation cannot be stopped because we are now in the information age. The authorities cannot completely block the news as in Mao’s era. Their lies are eventually seen through by the people. Therefore, I believe there might be some ups and downs. But marching towards democracy is inevitable. This cannot be changed based on someone’s will.

Reporter: What path do you think this will eventually take?

Zhang: It is hard to say. Take me as an example. For the last few years, no matter whether there is anyone supporting the human rights movement or not, there is always something going on among the people. Because in China there are quite a lot of groups being wronged and their basic human rights are being infringed upon. I recently read a report that Beijing authorities did a survey saying that a million people go to Beijing to appeal every year. The actual number of people might be double this number. We live in mainland China, we really can feel that every event around us is treated unjustly. Nobody in such a warped society is justly treated. Everyone feels resentment. As this resentment accumulates like it is, conflicts will inevitably arise. Therefore, we should say that this change will certainly come. No matter how Hu and Wen view the situation. I believe they are not able to handle the political situation. We can say the highest level of the CCP is like an oligarch clique, which is made up of a patriarch, some current government leaders, and others. Although the title is not so important, they have some local officials in power, which then make up many interest groups. The relationship between them is interest, the exchange of interest or a relationship between advantages and disadvantages. Moreover, they will not listen to anyone. Therefore, I feel that the situation at the top already shows that China will gradually move toward democracy.

Reporter: Do you think the CCP still has a way out?

Zhang: The communist party definitely has no way out. Human beings, on the other hand, have a way out. As a political party, a political movement, an idea, or a movement, Communism definitely has no way out. If they want to have a way out, these people can certainly find way out. But, the essence of communism is the same as Nazism. It really is an evil political movement. It will fail eventually. Its dropping out from the political stage is only a matter of time. Moreover, in this world, none of the communist political powers could regain power after people saw through their nature and rejected their control. They are like ghouls escaping from their coffins. They have run amuck for several decades or so. Once these ghouls disappear, they’ll be spit upon by the people. In the former Soviet Union, although people might still have a lot of dissatisfaction towards their government, nobody wants to go back to the era of communism. Moreover, for those eight countries in Eastern Europe, after the vanish of the communist political power, none of the countries tried to help communism survive. Therefore, the traditional communist mindset of violence and cheating definitely falls short of people’s wishes. We should say that it has no way out. Its end is just a matter of time.

Reporter: Have you ever joined the communist party?

Zhang: No. I had an antipathy toward it when I was young. I have never joined.

Reporter: Now both inside China and overseas many people are issuing public statements withdrawing themselves from the communist party. How do you view this phenomenon?

Zhang: I feel this is an inevitable trend that shows some people have awakened. In fact, from a certain standpoint, The CCP has now already degenerated very seriously. Let me give you an example! In the past the CCP organizational structure would replicate its self in a host entity. For instance, it existed in the various departments and units of the massive state-owned enterprises, or in group-owned enterprises. But because of these years of independent economic development, the present China has changed greatly. It became impossible for an individual to rely on his or her original work unit. In some work units, two-thirds of the employees were laid off. When leaving their work units, these people, in fact, were also distanced from the party. On the surface they are still the CCP members, but in realty they are not party members.

Therefore right now many communist party members have said that they worked hard for the CCP for their whole life until the ages of about 40 or 50, and the CCP just simply kicked them away--it doesn’t take care of anything for them, but the CCP still wants them to pay the party dues. Many have questioned why they should still have to pay dues. Taking a look at the present situation, many of those being laid off from jobs are the communist party members. In the bankrupted government-run enterprises, the factories managers are also communist party members. But so what? The communist party in fact has also kicked them out of the way.

In the past the CCP was enmeshed in every cell of society, but now to a very large degree, its basic-level entities no longer exist. About two-thirds of it: business related party branches, party bureaus, and party committees have now basically vanished automatically.

Therefore I’d guess that withdrawing from the party fits the average communist party member’s standpoint, because remaining in the party means each month they also must pay the party dues from their pitiful retirement pensions. In fact, it has become the means of collecting money for the party, therefore if they withdraw from the communist party now, they would save quite a bit of money. This is just from an economic point of view; from an even further point of view, these pension holders are the victims of society. They can all see how severe the corruption is in this society. Their lives are so difficult and in fact they have already been disillusioned in their hearts. They have also felt that it’s worthless to be a communist party member. Therefore the tide of withdrawing from the CCP is merely in its beginning stages. It is possible that in the next few years we will see people withdrawing in droves.

Reporter: It is said that the CCP has sent out a document stating that one will be dismissed from public service if one resigns from the party, is that true?

Zhang: I’ve heard this as well. Because the communist party has managerial control over businesses, it will definitely try to prevent resignation from the party. That is to say that once it is obvious that a work unit has many people that have withdrawn from the party, the higher authorities will ask ”What’s going on at your place? How come there are so many people withdrawing from the party? You must quickly prevent this from happening.” Therefore they will certainly try various tactics to try to solve this problem. They’ll use deception, announcing that they have the right to bar you from withdrawing, or use other devious tactics. That will certainly be the situation. They still take party dues from those who have already resigned from the party and haven’t participated in any of the communist party regular activities for many years. Even after some of such people went to request that the party not take the fees from their salaries or pensions, the CCP just kept on extracting the dues. There are all kinds of similar situations. Now in fact, the communist party’s rudimentary entities have been dissolving.

Reporter: Then do you think that these kinds of threat can prevent the flood of resignations?

Zhang: It can’t, how could that thing prevent it!? That sort of behavior can only frighten people for a short while, and cannot play a role in the long run. As for the current situation, the CCP hangs “the three-represents” on its mouth, and requests everyone to follow the communist thought, communist morals and communist personal character traits all day long, yet never evaluates itself. The party officials themselves are always thinking about how to send their children abroad, how they could make several million or several tens of millions of yuan. Two years ago, in China only those very high-ranking public officials sent their children to overseas schools, now even the county or bureau-level public officials all send their children to overseas schools. That is to say that corruption has already become the most common phenomenon. Now everybody knows this, yet they’re still talking about how everybody needs to follow the communist thought, communist morals and communist personal character traits! What a joke.

Now nobody supports these communist things, and it is being said that people were deceived by these lies and people are unsatisfied. Now a lot of retired servicemen have gone to appeal for help from all over the place, many of them are CCP members. After retirement from the army, they go through job placement. However, perhaps a million people, perhaps a couple million of them have no job. Though some enterprise entities should have some positions for them to help these retired servicemen and communist party members; now, being a communist party member already has no significance or advantage. Of course, the CCP might be able to prevent someone from withdrawing from the party if he doesn’t want to lose his own benefit at his administrative department or enterprise. He temporarily may not withdraw from the party to his own benefit. But the CCP won’t be able to stop those CCP members who are economically hurt from jointly withdrawing from the party.

Reporter: There is a saying: “What would China do without the CCP?” What’s your take on this question?

Zhang: In this world, the countries not operating under communism have all been managed well. Nothing special needs to be done. “Whenever it’s time for a meal then have the meal.” Whenever a problem arrives, let’s all have a discussion, and we can always find a solution. We could all only live better without the communist party. You see that the United States doesn’t have the communist party and everyone’s life is better. For any place in the world as long as it doesn’t have the communism, living conditions are better there. There’s no such issue as what to do without the communist party. There will only be questions like which style of living would be better, for instance, the U.S.-style, the Taiwan-style, or the Hong Kong-style. Why ask the question what China would do without communism? Any kind of governing would be better.

For any country in this world as long as it is communist, its people are in a state of disaster. This is actually common knowledge. Look at North Korea: because it’s governed by the communist party, its people are all starved nearly to death. Cuba is communist. From its common people to its professors, nobody has enough food. The former Soviet Union was communist, and one disaster after another visited it. Afghanistan is in a similar situation as well, because in the past it was communist. It should be stated that wherever in this world communism exists, the people there have been through disasters. Without the communist party, everything will be easier to deal with, and nothing will be a major trouble. The question of, “What would China do without the communist party?” is absurd.