Following the death of former Chinese Communist Party General Secretary, Zhao Ziyang, several former high-level CCP officials have begun to speak out publicly. One such official is Mr. Li Pu, who, on January 20, spoke during an interview with Epoch Times reporter, Xin Fei.

Mr Li, 86, is the former director of the Central and South China Bureau of the Central Committee of the CCP Policy Research Office; the Vice Director of the Propaganda Department of Guangdong province; head of the Beijing University Political Science Department, and Xinhua [China’s official news agency] Director of Domestic Affairs and Vice President. He currently resides in Beijing.

Li visited Zhao Ziyang three times when Zhao was under house arrest, and says that Zhao would rather quit as General Secretary than agree to the use of weapons on the people. In his opinion, Zhao was a very responsible and great politician. Never before in Asian history has anyone dared to carry out such an act. Only the Communist Party military have done so.

Reporter: You knew Zhao Ziyang. What is your impression of him? How do you regard his achievements in the area of political and economic reforms?

Li Pu: I knew Zhao Ziyang way back in the 60s. When Zhao came to Beijing to be the Premier of the State Council and later the General Secretary of the CCP, my impression of him got increasingly better. I will give you a few examples.

First, Zhao supported the ‘individual household responsibility’ project. In the past, peasants did not have the freedom to decide what to grow on their land. The government gave orders as to what everyone should grow and how to do it. Later, a few peasants in Anhui province secretly initiated the ‘individual household responsibility’ project and were able to turn in the appointed amount of rice and other produce to the Production Brigade. This was a very significant reform in the villages and can be viewed as the beginning of the reforms and opening up in China. Zhao was the Premier of the State Council at that time and he supported this reform.

Secondly, we can say that Zhao supported private economy, the economy that belonged to the people, and he discovered the advantages of private economy — that it could increase economic production, solve the employment problem, and increase taxable income. It was therefore Zhao who discovered the potential of private economy in China.

Thirdly, Zhao proposed opening up the market to the outside world. He carried out the policy of ‘opening up the two ends to the outside’ in Guangdong province, importing raw materials from foreign countries, processing them in China, and then exporting the products. This was the starting point of China’s reform and opening up policy.

Lastly, Zhao proposed the establishment of the ‘special economic zones’ in Shenzhen, Zhuhai, Xiamen, Shantou and Hainan. Deng Xiaoping supported this proposal. Hence, Zhao was also one of the designers of the policy of reform and opening up.

All of these examples demonstrate Zhao Ziyang’s role as one of the founders and designers of the economic reforms and the open-door policy.

Reporter: What is your view on his character and his conduct? For example, what do you think of his actions during the Tiananmen Square Student Movement?

Li Pu: He was a very good man; a statesman with vision. If there had been no reform and opening up policy in China, there would not have occurred today’s prosperity. He sympathized with the students during the Tiananmen Square Student Movement; he did not approve of summoning the army to bring about military control; he visited the fasting students, urging them to return to school to attend classes — all of this was very good. Had he agreed with military control in the suppression of the students, then he could still be Secretary General. But he opposed it, and so he had to leave the office and resign the position of Secretary General; there was no other recourse.

By choosing to not remain as Secretary General nor to consent to the use of military force against people, he showed he was a very responsible statesman, a great statesman. In this, I support and I praise him, and I admire him. Because he did not agree with military control and did not agree with opening fire against people in the suppression of the students, he was charged with ‘supporting turmoil, disuniting the party.’ Being the Secretary General and disuniting the party, is that not a joke? Such a fabricated charge — I sympathize with his misfortune.

Reporter: Are there many in the party like you who sympathize with Zhao Ziyang?

Li Pu: It is increasing day by day.

Reporter: Regarding the matter of whether a memorial service will be held for Zhao Ziyang, how do you feel the authorities would handle this matter? What would the outcome be?

Li Pu: It appears very clear now that the authorities feel that this matter is difficult to handle. If they acknowledged that placing him under house arrest for 15 years was in error, admitting it and daring to correct the mistake, the authorities would certainly gain public support, in fact the whole nation’s support. It is not as important to have erred as it is to correct the error.

Reporter: How do you think the matter of holding a memorial service for Zhao Ziyang should be handled?

Li Pu: It should be held, and the authorities should allow individuals to express opinions, and to freely attend the service. At the present time, it is not realistic to reverse the government’s verdict on the Tiananmen Square Massacre, but there is simply a request to reverse the injustice exerted on Zhao Ziyang. To admit this 15-year treatment was wrong, and to hold an appropriately large-scale public memorial service warranted by the position of Secretary General and Premier as a remedy measure: I ask only for these two things. Then, the Tiananmen Square Massacre can be set aside temporarily; it would be better if the Tiananmen Square Massacre could be reversed, but it is not possible to resolve everything now, so let it go for the present. Even if only the Zhao Ziyang matter was resolved, reversed, with justice restored to him, it would represent great progress. It would greatly strengthen the stability of the government, comply with public sentiment, and conform to world trends.

Reporter: If the authorities refuse to hold a memorial service or insist that Zhao Ziyang was wrong, how do you feel the public may react?

Li Pu: It is hard to predict. It would be incorrect to do these things and it would be very, very foolish. Obviously, to do the opposite of what people want would not bring about a good outcome.

Reporter: In your opinion, how do the party members look at this matter?

Li Pu: There are quite a few who hold the same view as mine, though I am not sure how many yet. I believe in my own views; therefore I hope there are more people who share the same opinion. I don’t know how many there are, but I believe the number is increasing. If people knew the truth, there would be more in agreement. If people like me could speak openly, talk about my opinion and viewpoint, it would cause more people to agree with me. But this is not possible in China.

According to the stipulation of freedom of speech in the Constitution, this naturally should ensure the freedom of public speech, not just of private speech by individuals. If there were real freedom of speech and freedom of publication, I could publicly express my views; you could disagree with my view; could criticize, debate; all-in-all it would be open, not secretly working in the dark. I could then see everything being resolved.

Reporter: Many who wished to extend condolences to Mr. Zhao Ziyang were detained; quite a few were placed under house arrest, and not permitted to leave the house, such as Liu Xiaobo, Liu Di and so on. Mr. Bao Tong was also kept away, and his wife was even pushed over, suffering a bone fracture. Mr. Lin Mu was kidnapped in Xi'an and put under house arrest. How do you look at these issues?

Li Pu: If they wanted to apply the same measure to me or also imprison me, I tell you, I could not do anything about it, and I have no way to rebel. If they want to throw me in prison, they’ll just throw me in prison- there’s nothing I can do about it. If anyone wanted to dismiss my party membership, dismiss my public service position, there’d be nothing I could do about that either. Let me tell you, when I was 20-some years old during the period of war against Japan, I joined the Communist Party, and I participated in the revolution, which was then referred to as: ‘Tie the head on the belt to work, to revolutionize, not afraid to die.’

Although I am nearly 87 years old, I still have this kind of spirit. I am prepared to be imprisoned as a result of making these views public, or to be expelled from the party. I am still like I was when I was 20; there has been no change when it comes to this. I can say this without boasting — I am still strong, though old. This matter of Zhao Ziyang is indeed incredibly sad. How many 15-year terms are there in a person’s life? House arrested him for 15 years!

Reporter: During the period of Zhao Ziyang’s arrest, did you visit him?

Li Pu: Last year, Zhao brought this up with the authorities, requesting that his friends could freely visit him, and that he could freely go visit friends, but he was refused. Someone like me, his former subordinate and an old friend who knew him since the 60s, I would say that we had a good relationship; an old boss-subordinate relationship; a friendship. During his house-arrest period, I went to see him three times as a matter of fact. I merely asked about his health, and visited him, feeling that he was too lonely, and had no contact with the outside world, wouldn’t you say it was unbearable? I just visited him like this, slightly soothing his loneliness, casually conversing. I did not visit him as a reporter; therefore I did not keep records as to which year or which month I visited, I just remember that I visited him three times.

I heard that there are two books on Zhao’s political decisions, including one written by Yang Jisheng. I briefly flipped through the book and found it well-written. There are some facts in it that I can prove; for example, he said that if Zhao had agreed with military control, he could have carried on as Secretary General. Because he did not agree, he submitted his resignation. Later on, Yang Shangkun said to him: It will be very serious if you resign, so please don’t submit it. Zhao then took back the letter of resignation, but he was later dismissed from the position. This is all true, and I can vouch for it.

Reporter: What do you think about the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre?

Li Pu: Using such a large volume of tanks to oppress its own people on the streets was unprecedented, so it’s only natural that people emphasize the Massacre so much. Empress Dowager in the Qing Dynasty dared not do so; the warlords of the North China region in the Early Republic dared not do so; the Japanese imperialists dared not do so when seizing Beijing; the army of the Kuomintang (KMT) dared not do so. Only the army of the CCP dared to do so. Isn’t it shameful? Therefore, we can fully understand why everyone is so concerned with the Massacre.

Reporter: You were once Vice President of Xinhua News Agency. What are your thoughts about this part of your life?

Li Pu: The start of Xinhua News Agency was the Xinhua Daily during the Sino-Japanese War. Chongqing was the capital of KMT at that time. The Communist Party established the Xinhua Daily in Chongqing. I worked for it. Afterwards, the KMT stopped the Xinhua Daily. I was hired as a special correspondent of Xinhua News Agency in the field forces under the leadership of General Liu Bocheng and Deng Xiaoping. I worked in Beijing’s main office in 1949 and covered the First Plenum of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC). The Central People's Government was established at the CPPCC. Liu Shaoqi, representing the Communist Party, said that the CCP was one of the democratic parties.

Later, people called other parties besides the CCP the democratic parties. Actually, at the beginning, the CCP was only one of the democratic parties. Afterwards, I covered the founding ceremony of the People’s Republic of China. Then, I worked in the Propaganda Department of the CPC Central Committee, Beijing University, and Central and South China Bureau of the Central Committee of the CCP. After the Great Cultural Revolution, I worked as deputy director of the Propaganda Department of Guangdong province for several months. Then, I was hired as Vice President at the Xinhua News Agency and eventually retired in 1982.

Actually, I worked as Vice President at Xinhua News Agency for only four years — 1978 to 1982. You could say that I worked for that Agency, but I don’t represent it. I have nothing to do with it. My only relationship with it was that it paid me wages. That’s all.

Reporter: Do you agree that Xinhua News Agency is the CCP’s mouthpiece, spreading lies for it?

Li Pu: I was once Vice President of Xinhua News Agency, so I would like to remain silent on that question. I don’t want to say anything regarding other news reports, but I want to comment about the report of Zhao Ziyang’s death. It called him ‘Comrade Zhao Ziyang.’ Zhao was once General Secretary in the Central Committee of the CCP and Premier of State Council. The report said nothing about that; just ‘comrade.’ There are so many members in the CCP. Even if one is not a member of the CCP, you can call him a ‘comrade.’ Zhao was not only a ‘comrade’ but was General Secretary and Premier. Why didn’t they say that he was once General Secretary, why he resigned, and how he had lived for these 15 years? The report didn’t say a word about it.

But we cannot completely blame Xinhua News Agency. As far as I know, this has to be ordered by the authorities. Xinhua News Agency only followed the order to report the news. One of Xinhua News Agency’s tasks is to publish the announcements of the government. The CCP Central Government ordered them to write it as such, and they could not write anything else. Xinhua News Agency is that kind of organization. It has to follow the orders of the CCP Central Government.