Dr. Wu Guoguang used to be part of the think tank advising former Secretary General of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Zhao Ziyang, who died on January 17. Mr. Wu agreed to an interview with The Epoch Times (ET).

In the mid-1980s, Wu was a member of the political reform brain trust when Zhao was in power. After the June 4th Tiananmen Square Massacre, he obtained a Ph.D. in political science from Princeton University in New Jersey. After teaching in Hong Kong for nine years, he went to the University of Victoria, British Columbia, where he is a visiting professor and teaches in both the Department of Political Sciences and the Department of History. He is also the China Program chairman at the Center for Asia-Pacific Initiatives.

ET: The CCP made an extremely low-key announcement of Zhao Ziyang’s death, and is not planning to hold any memorial service for Zhao, what do you think? [Editor’s note: At the time of the interview, no plans had been made for a memorial, but various recent reports indicate that a service would possibly be held early this week.]

Wu: I am not surprised. This is a barbarous regime, it naturally makes inhuman responses. All they care about is their own power and positions.

ET: What is your opinion of Zhao?

Wu: One great thing about Zhao Ziyang that stands out is that he could sacrifice his own power, position and even his freedom — everything he has — for his conscience, ideals and the common people’s interests. This creates such a sharp contrast with the character of the current Chinese leaders. It also contrasts with the degenerating atmosphere of today’s Chinese society.

For more than 10 years, under the ravage of the suppression and subornation from the despotic reign, this society is forgetting the fundamental rules of civilization. It is losing rudimentary human nature and care, and only recognizes money and power. People will do anything, no matter how despicable, for money and power. Officials go against their conscience to seek promotion and personal gain. In contrast, we can see how great are the actions of Zhao in 1989, especially his perseverance in the subsequent 15 years and 8 months. Of course, his actions and perseverance are inseparable from his ideal of establishing a civil, democratic political system in China that is in keeping with the common people’s interests. This ideal and his contribution to the economic reform are the fundamentals that established Zhao’s historical status.

ET: What influence do you think Zhao’s death will have on China’s political situation?

Wu: It seems that the current impact is to threaten the CCP’s so-called stability. This is the kind of stability in the rotten society under tyranny. They are afraid of allowing a memorial service, of broadcasting the news on China Central Television, even of permitting Bao Tong to offer condolences to Zhao’s family. How frail is this “stability”? Since this stability has already been so frail, there must be problems with it. Why would anyone want to maintain such “stability”? Since the CCP regime is still claiming its decision in 1989 had been correct and was in keeping with the common people’s interests, and Zhao was wrong, why were they scared of their own “correct” decision? They are even afraid of facing the deceased Zhao Ziyang.

Their decision in 1989 was a decision only concerned with power and position, and lacked even the most basic human nature. For more than 15 years, they went further and further down that path. Now they are regarding shameless things as honor. If it is so honorable and their decision was benefiting the Chinese people, why are they afraid of letting Chinese people know that Zhao died, and why are they afraid of letting the common people freely express how they feel about Zhao? For the past few years, this political power has been singing its own praises with all possible compliments. Now regarding the issue of Zhao’s death, their actions can only let more people realize the nature of this political power, and disclose their own tricks.

I think this will also have a long-term influence over China’s political situation, because Zhao advocated carrying out changes in the political system in China, and implementing a political transfer toward democracy. Only this kind of reform can resolve the series of conflicts and problems China is facing today, and can let the populace share the benefits gained from economic boom. The populace also participates to propel this transfer.

The foundation of a political power should be the populace’s approval, and is not to be maintained through brutal persecution. This kind of advocacy and standpoint will have wide long-term influence over China’s political situation, because China cannot avoid facing the challenge of political system reform.

Last year, on the occasion of Zhao’s 85th birthday, I wrote a short essay, and called it “The Ziyang Challenge.” Zhao fell as he pushed China to overcome this challenge. Sooner or later China, has to face this challenge. The more delay in doing so, the more people will yearn for Zhao Ziyang, and realize more deeply Zhao’s value. His influence will directly challenge the legitimacy of the current political power, challenge the stability that is maintained by police and money. This situation will only become more dangerous as time goes by and the conflicts in China deepen.

ET: Do you think the people in China will accept the CCP’s treatment of Zhao?

Wu: I do not know. The Chinese people have been deprived the right to know, the right to express their own wishes. Zhao wanted to change this situation in those years. Now we have entered the information age, but most of the Chinese people do not know that Zhao has died. Young people have not even heard of Zhao Ziyang as a result of the 15 years’ distortion of history. Despite these facts, as soon as Zhao died, the CCP responded as if confronting a formidable enemy. This enemy is not Zhao Ziyang, because he already died. Its enemy is the populace.

ET: Will the citizens of Mainland China have an intense response toward the passing of Zhao?

Wu: Whether it initiates an intense response — like what happened after the passing of Zhou Enlai and Hu Yaobang — isn’t determined only from the aspect of the citizenry. When Zhou Enlai passed away, he was appointed premier. He had a title as well as status. When Hu Yaobang died, the general political situation in China was somewhat loose. The present political power is very overbearing. The things they do not like, you cannot like. If you express any opinion, then you must be suppressed.

Of course there are citizens who will express their feelings of mourning. Unfortunately, many more are afraid to express them. They are especially scared to go to Tiananmen Square to mourn. It might also not be possible to make it there. Before you can get there, the police or plain-clothes policemen would stop you. And this isn’t only for today. Since 15.5 years ago, it was the same for Tiananmen Square or any other public places. Wasn’t it all like that? You can’t even wear yellow clothing if you’re going to Tiananmen Square for sightseeing.

ET: Do you think that this type of high-pressured political persecution by the CCP will succeed in suppressing the people?

Wu: I don’t know. At least he achieved his goal over the past 15 years. The Chinese people have always been going with what came to them, resigning themselves to bad conditions, and even swallowing insults. The entire society now seems unable to distinguish between right and wrong. It was especially so for these 15 years. People sold others out for power or material benefits. Everyone not only thought like this, but they were envious of, admired and considered those types of people to be talented. They wanted to carry favor with powerful people. Maybe the common populace weren’t that shameless, but the social stratum of the so-called outstanding people and the knowledgeable individuals, the majority of them were like that for 15 years.

ET: The current problems of society are very intense.

Wu: Indeed, they are extremely intense. We talk about values, morals, personalities and so on, not only because these things are good in the abstract, but because they are the basic ingredients for a society to develop healthily. If everyone tossed those things away, villains and hoodlums would become the dominant force in the society. Villains and hoodlums aren’t concerned with your life and death; they only consider their own desires. If someone of this stature were to control a society, then how can there not be intense and extreme problems? In dealing with these problems, the only method the villains and hoodlums have is brutality. Therefore, on the one hand, the problems are intense, and on the other hand, you have a highly suppressive political control, and so these two things coexist.

If they are able to successfully suppress the people, then the villains and hoodlums will continue to be successful. There will be one day that they cannot fully suppress the people. When that happens, there will be no turning back, just like a volcano erupting. The magma is not sitting still before the eruption: It will be struggling to erupt time and time again, but maybe they just cannot get through and are suppressed every time. In the end, the volcano does erupt fully. If some magma were to surge, it will flow out very quickly. If there is no pressure, then there will not be a volcanic eruption.

Therefore, Zhao Ziyang discussed political reform during those times, and he emphasized unblocking the populace, letting the people have power to restrict the authority of the bureaucrats, so they have a place to have their say, and receive justice for wrongs done to them. Of course from a positive aspect, we should have the ability to tackle issues. If we use the analogy of the volcano, it could be said that it had the ability to energize and form the contraction. Volcanoes are a type of energy. Zhao pointed out that those political reforms would form a long-term aspect of peace. They put Zhao down because such a government was totally unable to accept this type of thinking. They still will not accept it, even to this day. Therefore, this party has a type of fascist manner toward Zhao and his passing. They are not willing to share anything with the people, no matter if it was economic advantages or political authority, so problems would then indeed be intense. The more intense the problems are, the harder the leaders suppress, and this high-pressured suppression is creating the condition for a volcanic eruption.

ET: Zhao’s death came just as the tide for resignation of the Communist Party was coming. What are your views on the rapid increase of the Communist Party resignations on the internet?

Wu: This is also a type of eruption. Maybe it is the flowing of magma.

ET: Some people wonder, if there weren’t the Communist Party, then what could China do? What is your opinion on this?

Wu: There are many countries that do not have a communist party. In more accurate words, there are many more countries that do not practice the system of the Communist Party. The overwhelming majority of these countries all govern much better when compared to China. Wasn’t Taiwan said to be a part of China? They do not have a communist party, however their economic and political developments, their freedom of human rights and nationalism are all much better than the China under the CCP’s control.

In social psychology, there is a thing that they discovered called the “Stockholm syndrome.” It said that after the hostage has been held in a prolonged period of time by the kidnappers, their psychology begins to develop abnormally. Eventually, they would grow to be grateful toward the kidnappers, and feel that once they leave their kidnappers they would not have the means to live. The idea that without the Communist Party China would be in trouble, I think, is exactly this type of phenomenon.